The Complete Testimony of Richard Thompson
01/25/85
THE COURT: The courtroom will be closed.
MR. FORD: The next witness, your Honor, is a four-year-old boy named Richard Thompson.
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RICHARD THOMPSON, Witness
THE CLERK: Can you raise your right hand, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
THE CLERK: Do you promise to tell what happened?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: I think the witness nodded in the affirmative.
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DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD:
MR. FORD: Hi, Richard. Tell us what your name is?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Richard.
MR. FORD: What’s your last name?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Thompson.
MR. FORD: Who is this lady right here?
RICHARD THOMPSON: My mommie.
MR. FORD: What’s my name?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Dan.
MR. FORD: Dan, that’s right. How old are you Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up some fingers.)
MR. FORD: One, two, three, four; is that right?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. FORD: Where do you live?
RICHARD THOMPSON: 7 Memorial Drive.
MR. FORD: 7 Memorial Drive. Is that here in Pittsfield?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. FORD: Richard, did you used to go to E.C.D.C.? Can you say yes or no?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. FORD: Did you have some teachers down there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: What were their names?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: It’s okay to tell what their names are.
RICHARD THOMPSON: Stephanie and –
MR. FORD: Stephanie and who else?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: Do you remember — what about Bernie?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Is Bernie a teacher down there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Richard, did Bernie ever touch you somewhere?
MR. CONWAY: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Overruled. He may answer.
MR. FORD: Show these people where Bernie touched you. Show us so we can all see.
(Child pointing to the zipper area of his pants)
THE COURT: Maybe he can stand on the chair.
MR. FORD: Show us one more time, Richard.
RICHARD THOMPSON: (The child pointing to the zipper area of his pants.)
MR. FORD: May the record show the witness pointed to his pants, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, pointed to that area.
MR. FORD: Where were you when Bernie touched you down there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Woods.
MR. FORD: The woods?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: What do you call that down there, Richard? Is there a name for it?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: What do you usually call that?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: Do you call it your “P”?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did you ever see Bernie’s “P”?
MR. CONWAY: Objection, your Honor.
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Richard, when Bernie touched you down there were Bernie’s pants up or down?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child points with his finger up in the air)
MR. FORD: Did you touch Bernie anywhere?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Did Bernie touch you anywhere?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Richard, I’m going to show you this dolly and this has been marked for Identification –
THE COURT: “B.”
MR. FORD: Can you show us on the dolly where Bernie touched you, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child points to the doll’s genital area)
MR. FORD: May the record show that the witness pointed to the doll’s genital area, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FORD: Did Bernie ever play games with you?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: What kind of games?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: What kind of games, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Ring around the rosy.
MR. FORD: Did you ever play hide and seek?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. FORD: Where did you play hide and seek?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Once inside the school.
MR. FORD: Did you ever play hide and seek outside the school?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Where did you used to hide?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Shed.
MR. FORD: In the shed. Did Bernie ever find you in the shed?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did Bernie ever touch you in the shed?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Richard, did you ever see Bernie with his pants down?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Never did?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: You’re sure? Richard, let me ask you again: Did you ever see Bernie with his pants down?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: You did?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did you ever see this part of Bernie when his pants were down? Can I pull these pants down Richard so we can see?
(Mr. Ford referring to the doll)
MR. CONWAY: Objection, your Honor.
THE COURT: Noted for the record.
MR. FORD: Did you ever see this on Bernie?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Does Bernie have something down there that little boys don’t have? Can you tell us? Do you remember?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: What?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: It’s okay to tell, Richard. Look at me. What did Bernie have around there that little boys don’t have?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child just shrugs his shoulders)
MR. FORD: You don’t know?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Richard, when Bernie touched you down there was Johnny there too?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did you see Bernie touch Johnny somewhere?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child points to zipper area of his pants)
MR. FORD: Did you?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Where did Bernie touch Johnny?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child point to zipper area of his pants)
MR. FORD: May the record show that the witness pointed to his genital area, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. FORD: Were Johnny’s pants up or down?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds finger up)
MR. FORD: Does that mean up?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: How about Bernie’s pants?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child points his finger down)
MR. FORD: Down?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did anything come out of Bernie’s do?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. FORD: Is it do?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did Bernie ever put his do somewhere on you, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Where did he put it?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child pointed to zipper area of his pants)
MR. FORD: Down there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Did he ever put it up here?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: He did?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: How did that make you feel, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. FORD: Now did that make you feel?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Mad.
MR. FORD: May the record show that when I asked him up here, I was pointing to my mouth and the witness nodded yes.
THE COURT: It may.
MR. FORD: Richard, I’m going to go talk to Liz [The DA's Witness/Victim Advocate] for a moment, and I’ll be right back.
(Pause in proceedings)
MR. FORD: Richard, I’m not going to ask you any more questions. But you see this man right over here? He’s Mr. Conway. He’s a very nice man and he’s going to ask you some questions and I want you to answer Mr. Conway just the way you answered me. Would you do that for me?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Thanks a lot, Richard, You’re a good boy. Your witness.
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CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CONWAY:
MR. CONWAY: Hi, Richard. You’re four and you’re going to be five pretty soon?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Richard holds up his hand)
MR. CONWAY: When you went to E.C.D.C. did you have a lot of friends there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did you play a lot of games?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: You played duck and goose?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: What did you do when you played duck and goose?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child touches his head.)
MR. CONWAY: You played with Bernie?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: You played ring around the rosy with Bernie?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: What other games did you play?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Hide and seek.
MR. CONWAY: You played it inside the school?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: And outside too?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Who else played?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Johnny.
MR. CONWAY: Johnny Larson? He’s your friend?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: He was in school with you?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Where did you take your nap, Richard at school? You took a nap at school?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Where did you take a nap?
RICHARD THOMPSON: On cots.
MR. CONWAY: Did you take a nap near Johnny?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did Johnny sleep?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did you sleep or did you jump and run around? You slept?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did you go to the woods sometimes?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Were the woods near the school or away from the school?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Away.
MR. CONWAY: Away from the school. Did you go there on a bus?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Who went on the bus with you to the woods?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. CONWAY: Did Stephanie go?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did Eileen go? Remember Eileen?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did she go with you too?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Who else went?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. CONWAY: Did the bus driver go?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did you have a boy bus driver or a girl bus driver?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Girl.
MR. CONWAY: Do you like boy bus drivers? Who’s the better bus driver?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Boys.
MR. CONWAY: But you had a girl bus driver?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did Bernie go with you that day or was Bernie with you in the other room?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Went with me.
MR. CONWAY: Bernie went with you. Do you remember you talked to a lot of people about this, Hon, didn’t you? Everybody’s been asking you a lot of questions, haven’t they?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: You talked to Mr. Ford a lot too? Dan. How many times did you talk to Dan? Did you see him all the time?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up his fingers)
MR. CONWAY: Five times you talked to Dan? Wow. And you talked about Bernie at school, didn’t you?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Did you talk to some policemen too?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: How many times did you talk to the policemen?
RICHARD THOMPSON: A lot of times. (Child holds up his fingers)
MR. CONWAY: Four times you talked to the policemen? Wow. You talked to some other people too. Did you see a puppet show?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Tell these nice people what did they do at the puppet show, Richard.
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child waving with his hand)
MR. CONWAY: What did the puppets do? She had the puppets and they said better do — bad touching, good touching. Then after you saw the puppet show did you talk to mommy about it? Did mommy talk to you?
RICHARD THOMPSON: I colored.
MR. CONWAY: Okay. The puppets were like these dolls?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: How many times did you see the puppet show, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up one finger)
MR. CONWAY: Okay. How many times did you play with these dolls before? Did you play with the little boy doll before?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: How many times did you play with the little boy doll?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up two fingers)
MR. CONWAY: Did you play with the little boy doll with the policemen and Mr. Ford?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Shakes head from side to side)
MR. CONWAY: Who did you play with the little boy doll with?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Me.
MR. CONWAY: Was somebody else there? Was Jane there, the nice lady, Jane there?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. CONWAY: She was there. You talked to Jane about this too?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: How many times did you talk to Jane? Lots of time? One time?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up four fingers)
MR. CONWAY: Four times you talked to Jane. You played with the dolls all the time or just two times?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Child holds up five fingers)
MR. CONWAY: Five times. Remember when you were talking to Jane — did you tell her that it was you who touched Johnny’s thing? Do you recall telling her that?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: You remember telling her that Johnny touched Bernie with a stick?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: You told her that?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Do you know what it’s like to tell a story? Sometimes they’re real, and sometimes they’re make believe stories?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: Now, did you tell Jane and the police any stories? Were they real stories or make believe stories?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Fake stories.
MR. CONWAY: Fake stories. Why would you tell fake stories?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. CONWAY: They kept asking you about it, Hon, didn’t they? And you told them a fake story?
RICHARD THOMPSON: Yes.
MR. CONWAY: Can you tell us what the difference between a fake story and a real story is?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: I object.
THE COURT: He can answer if he can.
MR. CONWAY: What’s the difference between a fake story and a real story, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. CONWAY: Are you tired? It’s getting to be nap time?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: If real happens to you that’s a real story, isn’t it?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. CONWAY: If something doesn’t happen to you then it’s a fake story? Isn’t it a make believe story?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (No response).
MR. CONWAY: I have no further questions your honor.
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD:
MR. FORD: Is it kind of scary to talk about this, Richard?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Are you a little scared?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Am I your friend?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: Is Johnny your friend?
RICHARD THOMPSON: (Nods head up and down)
MR. FORD: No further questions.
MR. CONWAY: No questions, your Honor.
MR. FORD: You’re all done Richard. Donna, why don’t you go with him and just stand by. We’re going to call Johnny.
MR. CONWAY: Your Honor, while we’re waiting may we approach the side bar?
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(Following discussion held side bar:
MR. CONWAY: I’m just basically trying to cover it for the record. I don’t want to interrupt the trial by keeping objecting to the leading questions on the cross-examination of his own witnesses that I objected to. Basically I don’t want to keep doing it. If we can just have it with the coming witness and all of the children witnesses, if that can be a continuing objection without my trying to slow down the trial.
THE COURT: Yes. Certainly you may have a continuing objection to all of those matters.
MR. FORD: To every leading question?
THE COURT: Well –
Side bar discussion concluded)
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