Julie Hanes and Gay men
[The following exchange comes from pp. 75-82 of a deposition given by Julie Hanes (pseudonym) on July 6, 1988. It gives a clear picture of her attitudes towards gay men, attitudes that were probably very common in Pittsfiield in 1984. I strongly suspect that most of Baran's jury shared her low opinion of gay people. The deposition was taken because Julie was suing ECDC for several million dollars. David Mongue was a lawyer representing ECDC at that time. Gerard DiSanti was representing Julie Hanes.]
DAVID MONGUE: Now, going back to 1984, there was some point in time when you heard about some allegations at the ECDC involving Baran; is that right?
JULIE HANES: Yeah.
DAVID MONGUE: When did you first hear about those?
JULIE HANES: August.
DAVID MONGUE: How did you hear about it?
JULIE HANES: We had some friends over, people, we were talking, and one of them said that he heard that Bernie was quote “queer.” And we called the school and, well, Dave called the school and talked to Pat. And she said their personal life was none of their business and that you couldn’t just assume, you know, someone leads that kind of life style. If we wanted to, we could take Peter out of the school.
DAVID MONGUE: Is this something that David told to you after speaking –
JULIE HANES: No, we were, we were sitting there, the two of us, and Dave got very angry, and he said, that’s it, you know, we’re not going to have him, that’s it. We’re taking him out. And he called up there and he talked to Pat and he made the decision to take Peter out. And Peter came out of the school. We took him out.
DAVID MONGUE: Who were your friends that were over that mentioned this?
JULIE HANES: I don’t even know. It was just, his friends actually. And it was just something that was said in conversation because we were talking about things that were going on at the school. And how I didn’t like him, so.
DAVID MONGUE: And you don’t know the names of those friends?
JULIE HANES: No, no, you’re talking awhile ago.
DAVID MONGUE: And when was Peter removed?
JULIE HANES: Actually, I said August, but I believe it was September. There was so much that happened in September. I believe it was September.
DAVID MONGUE: Do you know when it was in September that he removed him?
JULIE HANES: I would say towards the end of the month, maybe in the middle. Excuse me. Yeah.
DAVID MONGUE: When was it that these friends had been over the house?
JULIE HANES: The night before. No, I said August. But it was September because it was right, it was one thing happened after another. We heard that. We called the school. We took him out. A week later we found out. You know, it was one right after another.
DAVID MONGUE: What did you have to do to take him out of the school, if anything?
JULIE HANES: We just didn’t send him back. We called the school and said he will not be returning.
DAVID MONGUE: Did you give a reason?
JULIE HANES: Yeah, we did. We said we didn’t feel somebody with that kind of life style should be working with kids and they told us very politely that their life style was their own business. We could take him out if we chose to do that.
DAVID MONGUE: Did you speak to anyone or was it David?
JULIE HANES: No, it was David.
DAVID MONGUE: So you yourself didn’t speak with anyone at the school?
JULIE HANES: No, no.
DAVID MONGUE: And how did David make his feelings known, by telephone, or did he go up to the school?
JULIE HANES: Telephone.
DAVID MONGUE: Do you know who it was that he said he spoke with?
JULIE HANES: No. I don’t want to say Pat because he knows — he knows that I had a lot of discussions with Pat. I’m not sure who he talked to. At that time, I think it was Heidi something — I’m not sure who he talked to.
DAVID MONGUE: So you’re removing him from school consisted of simply stop sending him to school?
JULIE HANES: Right. At that point, we were pretty fed up with the problems that were going on and then we hear that and I didn’t like him the first day I met him.
DAVID MONGUE: When did you first meet Baran?
JULIE HANES: 83. Late 83. 83. At some point in 83.
DAVID MONGUE: What was it about him that you did not like?
JULIE HANES: His manner.
DAVID MONGUE: What was his manner that you did not like.
JULIE HANES: He was queer.
DAVID MONGUE: How did you know he was quote “queer” close quote back in 1983?
JULIE HANES: The way he dressed, the way that he looked and the way that he talked.
DAVID MONGUE: How did he dress that made you reach that conclusion?
JULIE HANES: Very feminine, very, I don’t know, just not like a man would dress.
DAVID MONGUE: What was he wearing that led you to conclude that?
JULIE HANES: Designer jeans, very, a top like this and loafers. I just, I don’t know, wasn’t really his dress. It was his talk, too, that did it.
DAVID MONGUE: So it was more his talk than his dress that led you to believe that he was gay?
JULIE HANES: Right.
DAVID MONGUE: And how did he talk? How would you describe it?
JULIE HANES: Hi Petey, how are you today? Exactly.
DAVID MONGUE: You mean he had a high pitched voice.
JULIE HANES: Very. [Note: I know Bernard Baran very well. His voice is not notably high pitched. -- Bob Chatelle]
DAVID MONGUE: So anyone who has a high pitched voice is likely to be gay in your opinion?
JULIE HANES: No. One look at him and you’ll know, fact.
Q, Did you make your feelings known to anyone at ECDC back in 1983 when you first met him?
JULIE HANES: The van driver, when I first met him that day, I said, i don’t know what it is with that guy, but I can’t stand him. And she said, yeah, well, I’m not too keen on those group of people myself, blah, blah, and that was the end of it. I had no, no reason not to like him or dislike him. So I just said, I made a statement. I don’t know what it is, but I don’t like him.
DAVID MONGUE: And you basically made a conclusion back in 1983 that Baran was gay?
JULIE HANES: I don’t know if it was a conclusion, but it was a thought. I didn’t know for sure. I mean like you said, just because they dress that way and talk that way doesn’t necessarily mean that they are. But then when another party said, you know, they threw it out, too, then I started getting a little suspicious.
DAVID MONGUE: Was this the party that made the statement to you back in September of 1984?
JULIE HANES: yeah, yeah.
DAVID MONGUE: So there was nothing from the time when you first met Baran and made some conclusions about the way he talked up to September of 1984 that reinforced your feelings that he was gay?
JULIE HANES: No.
DAVID MONGUE: If you had known he was gay prior to September of 1984, would you have removed him from the school?
GERARD. DISANTI: Objection. I want to object to that. Asking for a conclusion. I’ve instructed her not to answer if I object.
DAVID MONGUE: So you’re simply not objecting for the record.
JULIE HANES: I can answer that question now. I can answer it.
GERARD DISANTI: Okay.
JULIE HANES: At that point, I probably would have taken him out because I had a very bad attitude about the gay community. Since then, I have learned that not all gay people rape kids. They don’t prey on kids. And at that point, I had feeling that if they’re gay, they shouldn’t be with kids. They shouldn’t get married. They shouldn’t have kids. They shouldn’t be allowed out in public. I was very prejudiced out toward them. Now today knowing a little bit more and meeting a few, I have found out that’s not true, but at that point, I probably would have taken him out.