The Complete Testimony of John Larson

01/25/85

JOHN LARSON, Witness

MR. FORD: Remember Mrs. Capeless?

THE CLERK: Hi, Johnny. Can you put your right hand up?

(Child raises his right hand)

THE CLERK: Do you promise to tell what happened?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: I believe the witness shook his head, yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: Yes.

*****

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD:

MR. FORD: Hi, Johnny.

JOHN LARSON: Hi.

MR. FORD: What’s your name?

JOHN LARSON: Johnny Larson.

MR. FORD: Johnny Larson?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: How old are you?

JOHN LARSON: (Child holds up four fingers)

MR. FORD: Four.

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Who is the man next to you?

JOHN LARSON: Daddy.

MR. FORD: What’s my name?

JOHN LARSON: Mr. Ford.

MR. FORD: That’s right. Do you know that man sitting up there, way up there?

JOHN LARSON: The judge.

MR. FORD: Do you know what his last name is?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. FORD: What’s his last name? It sounds like a chipmunk. Remember Simon the Chipmunk?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Excuse me, your Honor. I don’t mean it disrespectively.

THE COURT: I’ve been called worse.

MR. FORD: I used it to break the ice.

MR. FORD: Did you ever go to school at E.C.D.C.?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: You did? Do you remember who your teachers were there?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: You did? Do you remember who your teachers were there?

JOHN LARSON: Mary and Mrs. Coulter.

MR. FORD: Anybody else?

JOHN LARSON: Mary.

MR. FORD: Mary Morin?

JOHN LARSON: Mary.

MR. FORD: Mary, Okay. Anybody else?

JOHN LARSON: Lois.

MR. FORD: Lois.

JOHN LARSON: And Bernie.

MR. FORD: Okay. Johnny, while you were at E.C.D.C. did Bernie ever touch you somewhere?

JOHN LARSON: (Child nods head up and down and points to the zipper area of his pants.)

MR. FORD: Right down there?

JOHN LARSON: (Child nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: May the record show that the witness pointed to his penis, your Honor?

THE COURT: It may.

MR. FORD: Where were you when Bernie touched you down there?

JOHN LARSON: In the woods.

MR. FORD: Were your pants up or down?

JOHN LARSON: Up — down, I mean.

MR. FORD: What about Bernie’s pants? Were his pants up or down?

JOHN LARSON: Down — up, I mean.

MR. FORD: His pants were up and your pants were down?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. FORD: Now, how did that make you feel, Johnny, when Bernie touched you down there?

JOHN LARSON: Mad.

MR. FORD: Did Bernie touch you anywhere else?

JOHN LARSON: (Child nods head up and down, and points to his fanny area)

MR. FORD: What did he touch you back there with?

JOHN LARSON: With his finger.

MR. FORD: With his finger?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Johnny, could you show us how Bernie touched you with his finger?

JOHN LARSON: (Child pokes himself with his finger on the fanny)

MR. FORD: He poked you like that?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did he do something? Did he put his finger inside?

JOHN LARSON: No, right here.

MR. FORD: Right on your behind?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Now, his pants fell off, didn’t they?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Was Richard with you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Your friend Richard?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did Bernie touch Richard somewhere?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Where did he touch him?

JOHN LARSON: (No response).

MR. FORD: Where did Bernie touch Richard?

JOHN LARSON: I don’t know.

MR. FORD: Did you see it?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Think hard. Tell us where Bernie touched Richard.

JOHN LARSON: (Child points to the area of zipper on his pants.)

MR. FORD: May the record show that the witness pointed to his penis, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. FORD: Was Richard in the woods with you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did you ever play any games with Bernie and Johnny?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. FORD: You didn’t? Did you ever play hide and go seek?

JOHN LARSON: Yes.

MR. FORD: Where did you play hide go seek?

JOHN LARSON: In the shed.

MR. FORD: Is that near the school?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Now, did Johnny — what do you call this right down there? What do you call it?

JOHN LARSON: A dinky.

MR. FORD: Did you ever see something come out of Bernie’s dinky?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: What?

JOHN LARSON: Nothing.

MR. FORD: Nothing came out?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. FORD: Did something white come out?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. FORD: Something yellow come out?

JOHN LARSON: No.

MR. FORD: Nothing at all? Did something from Bernie’s dinky ever go on your face?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. FORD: Did it go somewhere else?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. FORD: Did Bernie ever tell you stories?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Scary stories?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. FORD: What kind of scary stories did Bernie tell you?

JOHN LARSON: I don’t know.

MR. FORD: Do you remember — did he tell you about devils?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did he tell you about fire?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did he tell you about wolves that are little boys?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: How did that make you feel, Johnny?

JOHN LARSON: Sad.

MR. FORD: Did it make you feel scared?

JOHN LARSON: No, sad.

MR. FORD: I’m going to talk to Liz. You just sit right there. I’ll be right back.

(Pause in proceedings)

MR. FORD: Johnny, –

JOHN LARSON: What?

MR. FORD: Let me ask you just one thing again.

JOHN LARSON: What?

MR. FORD: When Bernie touched Richard did Bernie do something to Richard?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Tell these nice people what Bernie did to Richard. Did he put his dinky somewhere?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. FORD: Where?

JOHN LARSON: (Child points to area of zipper on his pants.)

MR. FORD: He put his dinky down there?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Did he put his dinky up here? Did he put it up here? Look at me. Did Bernie put his dinky up here on Richard?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. FORD: He did?

JOHN LARSON: No.

MR. FORD: Which is it, yes or no?

JOHN LARSON: Yes.

MR. FORD: Johnny, I’m all done with you, asking you questions, now. This man right over here is Mr. Conway and he’s a very nice man. He wants to ask you some questions too. So what I want you to do is listen to his questions and answer them just the way you answered mine. Would you do that for us?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Thanks, Johnny. You’re a very, very good boy.

*****

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. CONWAY

MR. CONWAY: Hi, Johnny. Are you getting tired too?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: You’ve been hanging around waiting?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you tell Dad you wanted to go to MacDonald’s for lunch?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you like MacDonald’s?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Do you like MacDonald’s a lot?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you tell somebody one time that your mommy worked at MacDonald’s?

JOHN LARSON: No.

MR. CONWAY: Your mommy doesn’t work at MacDonald’s?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: What kind of things do they have at MacDonald’s?

JOHN LARSON: Hamburgers and french fries.

MR. CONWAY: Did you go there from school?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down) (Then answers no.)

MR. CONWAY: They’ve got good hamburgers, Hon?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: They’ve got things that you can play on there too?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Do you know who Ronald MacDonald is, the clown? Did you see the clown there?

JOHN LARSON: Yes, on TV.

MR. CONWAY: On TV you see him? Now, do you know you told us a story. Did Bernie tell you a story about the big back wolf?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did he tell you about the three pigs?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Blowing the house down?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Was that a scary story? He was going to get them pigs and eat them up?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-huh.

MR. CONWAY: Is that the story Bernie told you about the Big Bad Wolf eating the pigs?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: And the fire — the wolf came down the chimney and went in the fire?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did that scare you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: But the bad wolf, he got it?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Where was the woods? Was it near the school?

JOHN LARSON: Way, far away.

MR. CONWAY: You had to go on s bus, didn’t you?

JOHN LARSON: No, walk.

MR. CONWAY: Oh, you walked. You walked all the way from your school to the woods?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you walk down the hill or did you walk up the hill?

JOHN LARSON: Down the hill.

MR. CONWAY: You walked down the hill?

JOHN LARSON: I almost falled.

MR. CONWAY: Did you walk down the sidewalk?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down) No.

MR. CONWAY: How did you walk? Where did you walk? Did you walk on the grass?

JOHN LARSON: The snow,

MR. CONWAY: Oh, snow. It was wintertime, Hon?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: And you went for a walk?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: Who went on the walk with you.

JOHN LARSON: (No response).

MR. CONWAY: Do you remember? Did Mary go? Remember Mary?

JOHN LARSON: Yes, Mary take me for a walk.

MR. CONWAY: Mary took you for a walk?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: Was Pat there too? Remember Pat Coulter?

JOHN LARSON: Pat, yes.

MR. CONWAY: Did she go too?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: A lot of kids or just you kids?

JOHN LARSON: Lots of kids go.

MR. CONWAY: Everybody in your room went. Can you show me with your fingers how many kids were in your room?

JOHN LARSON: Ten.

MR. CONWAY: Was it maybe more too? Lots and lots, Hon?

JOHN LARSON: Lots and lots.

MR. CONWAY: A whole room full?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: When you went to the woods you went for a walk?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did Johnny go with you?

JOHN LARSON: What Johnny?

MR. CONWAY: Johnny Larson, your little friend.

MR. FORD: This is Johnny Larson.

MR. CONWAY: I’m sorry. I’m losing track. Richard, did Richard go with you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Was another boy, named Johnny, in your class?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: You were the only Johnny?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: How many Bernies were there?

JOHN LARSON: One.

MR. CONWAY: Just one Bernie. You went for a walk — is that when Bernie told you the story about the big bad wolf or did he tell you that when you were sitting at the table in school?

JOHN LARSON: (No response).

MR. CONWAY: Did you do finger painting with Bernie?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: Did you do ring around the rosy?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: You did play ring around the rosy, Hon? Who would play ring around the rosy with you?

JOHN LARSON: Everybody.

MR. CONWAY: Did Bernie sing songs for you?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Did somebody else sing songs?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Remember Katie used to sit down and sing songs with you? Do you remember Katie at all?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: You don’t remember a big girl named Katie? You don’t remember her?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Now, do you know Mr. Ford, Hon?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you see him a lot?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. CONWAY: How often did you see him? How many times have you seen him? Show us on your fingers?

JOHN LARSON: (Child holds up five fingers)

MR. CONWAY: That many times. Wow. Was that near here over in his office? Where did you see him?

JOHN LARSON: In his office.

MR. CONWAY: Was Liz there too?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Did you talk to Mr. Ford about all these things that happened?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-huh.

MR. CONWAY: You talked to mommy and daddy, didn’t you?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-huh.

MR. CONWAY: Did you go see a puppet show?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Where did you go to see the puppet show?

JOHN LARSON: I don’t know.

MR. CONWAY: Do you remember the puppet show?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Tell these nice ladies and men over here what the puppet show was all about?

JOHN LARSON: Where’s mommy?

MR. CONWAY: Mommy is in the other room. I think mommy is right there. She didn’t go away on you. Did mommy and daddy go to the puppet show with you?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: Did they tell you what the puppet show was about?

JOHN LARSON: Yup — no.

MR. CONWAY: Did you talk to mommy about the puppet show afterwards?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: But you did talk to Mr. Ford about it?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Did you talk to anyone about it?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. CONWAY: Sometimes you tell — make up stories and tell them, don’t you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Do you tell scary stories?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. FORD: I object.

MR. CONWAY: Do you tell scary stories sometimes?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Do you tell funny stories, like a joke.

JOHN LARSON: No.

MR. CONWAY: Tell me a funny story.

MR. FORD: I object.

THE COURT: Sustained.

MR. CONWAY: What kind of story do you tell?

JOHN LARSON: Real scary ones.

MR. CONWAY: What kind of stories do you tell about?

JOHN LARSON: Creatures.

MR. CONWAY: But there’s really no creatures, are there?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: You just make stories up?

JOHN LARSON: Some snakes in the forest.

MR. CONWAY: Did you see a snake in the forest?

JOHN LARSON: I didn’t go by myself though.

MR. CONWAY: Who went with you?

JOHN LARSON: (No response).

MR. CONWAY: Did daddy go with you?

JOHN LARSON: I didn’t go yet.

MR. FORD: But if you didn’t go how do you know there’s snakes in the forest?

JOHN LARSON: ‘Cause I’m smart.

MR. CONWAY: But you’re smart. I guess you saw it on TV?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: But you never went into the forest by yourself. Did you ever go with daddy — did he ever take you fishing?

JOHN LARSON: No, not yet.

MR. CONWAY: But you’re going to go, Hon?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Do you know when you tell stories about the creatures those are — you didn’t really see the creatures, you make up the stories?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Are we keeping you awake?

JOHN LARSON: You’re getting me tired.

MR. CONWAY: Okay. I’ll let you go to lunch pretty soon. I’ve got to ask you some questions.

JOHN LARSON: Okay.

MR. CONWAY: Do you know any stories about Bernie that Mr. Ford was asking you about? Tell us whose story is that? Did you tell Mr. Ford that story or did Mr. Ford tell you that story?

JOHN LARSON: I tell him.

MR. CONWAY: Now, did you tell him that lots of times? Did he ask you lots of questions?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Besides Mr. Ford did you see Liz over there? You see Liz?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: How many times did you talk to Liz?

JOHN LARSON: I don’t know.

MR. CONWAY: How about the policemen. Dod [sic] you go see a policeman?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. CONWAY: Did you talk to them?

JOHN LARSON: Yup.

MR. CONWAY: How many times did you talk to them?

JOHN LARSON: I don’t know.

MR. CONWAY: Oh, come on, you told us you were smart. You can count how many times.

JOHN LARSON: I didn’t talk to them.

MR. CONWAY: You didn’t talk to the policemen?

JOHN LARSON: (Shakes head from side to side)

MR. CONWAY: Maybe he didn’t show you his badge, Okay. I have no further questions, your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD:

MR. FORD: You’re a real good boy, Johnny. This has been a little scary for you?

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Do you want to go now?

JOHN LARSON: Uh-uh.

MR. FORD: I think you’d better go. It’s time to get something to eat.

JOHN LARSON: (Nods head up and down)

MR. FORD: Bye, Johnny.

JOHN LARSON: Bye.