Richard Thompson Interview

[Note: Children's names have been changed.]




2 Berkshire, ss. Superior Court

No. 820251










10 INTERVIEW OF: RICHARD THOMPSON, held in the District

Attorney's Office. (Duration: 47 minutes)








16 Karen K. Kidwell

Certified Shorthand Reporter

17 Certificate of Proficiency

Certificate of Merit



19 Certified Shorthand Reporters

Certificate of Proficiency

20 Certificate of Merit


21 95 State Street P. 0. Box 402

Springfield, MA Pittsfield, MA

22 01103 01202

Tel (413) 733-4078 Tel (413) 499-2231



1 PAT: All right.

2 RICHARD: Don't know (Inaudible).

3 PAT: Erase this part.

4 RICHARD: My Daddy with long hair.

5 PAT: Is he going to have a baseball

6 hat on?

7 RICHARD: Oh, I forgot to (Inaudible) my

8 Daddy off because he don't have a baseball hat on.

9 DONNA: There. Okay. Just wipe his

10 head off. Wipe the whole thing. Okay. You're

11 going to make his baseball hat. Daddy always wears

12 a hat, huh, Richard? Something on his head.

13 RICHARD: Yeah, baseball.

14 DONNA: Baseball, yeah. Wow, he's

15 got a big head.

16 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

17 PAT: Does your Dad smoke cigarettes?

18 Yes?

19 DONNA: A hat.

20 PAT: Good hat. Does your Dad like

21 baseball?

22 RICHARD: Yeah. Hockey and baseball.

23 PAT: He likes all sports; doesn't


1 he?

2 RICHARD: Yeah.

3 PAT: Good for him. Where's his

4 hands?

5 RICHARD: (Drawing).

6 PAT: He's got long fingers. Those

7 are his fingers or his hands?

8 RICHARD: Hands.

9 PAT: Hands. Good job. You want to

10 draw any other pictures?

11 RICHARD: He looks like a wildcat.

12 PAT: Is he a wildcat?

13 RICHARD: Yeah.

14 PAT: Yeah?

15 RICHARD: He smokes cigarettes.

16 PAT: Lots of people smoke

17 cigarettes; don't they? But you don't smoke

18 cigarettes.

19 DONNA: You do?

20 RICHARD: Smoke crayons.

21 DONNA: Him and his cousin make

22 believe they're smoking crayons.

23 PAT: Does Mommy smoke cigarettes?


DONNA: How come you smoke crayons?

RICHARD: Look it. All cigarettes.

PAT: Well, come on and sit next us. You can sit right here between me and your Okay? How's that? Now, before we get going to playing things, maybe we can talk. Remember I told you we were going to be on T V? Okay. See there's a microphone up there? See the camera over there? You see that?

RICHARD: Uh-huh.

PAT: That means we're going to be on T V. Isn't that special?

RICHARD: We're (Inaudible) the movies.

PAT: We'll maybe see it later, but remember I told you I was going to bring you down here? Okay? Down to the D A's office to talk? Okay? So why don't we not play with this for a little bit and we'll talk a little bit and then we'll take a rest and then we'll play and then we'll talk some more and then we'll play. Is that a good idea? Remember you went to a puppet show? Right?

RICHARD: (Nodding).


1 PAT: What were those puppets names;

2 remember?

3 RICHARD: Zoie.

4 PAT: Zoie. What was the other one?

5 RICHARD: Zelda.

6 PAT: Zelda. Right. And what was

7 Zoie and Zelda talking about?

8 RICHARD: Bad touch and good touch.

9 PAT: Right. Bad touch and good

lO~ touch.

11 RICHARD: And Zoie son.

12 PAT: And Zoie's son.

13 RICHARD: (Nodding).

14 PAT: Were those also the other two

15 dolls that they had in the room that day?

16 RICHARD: Yeah.

17 PAT: What did those dolls have that

18 these Cabbage Patch dolls don't have? Do you

19 remember?

20 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

21 PAT: They had where you go pee?

22 What do you call those?

23 RICHARD: Dupy.


1 PAT: Your dupy. That's what you

2 call your pee when you go to the bathroom you call

3 that your dupy?

4 RICHARD: (Nodding).

5 PAT: Those are called special parts

6 or private parts; right?

7 RICHARD: (Nodding).

8 PAT: So we'll have to understand

9 that what you call yours is a dupy, your private

10 part. And what do you call in the back where you go

11 pooh?

12 RICHARD: Butt.

13 PAT: Your butt? Okay.

14 RICHARD: (Nodding).

15 PAT: So what we were talking about

16 that day was private parts and if anybody ever

17 touched your private parts; right?

18 RICHARD: (Nodding).

19 PAT: Right? Okay. So if you can

20 remember way back a long time ago, do you ever

21 remember anybody touching your private parts?

22 RICHARD: My dupy.

23 PAT: Who touched your dupy?


1 RICHARD: Johnny.

2 PAT: Johnny touched your dupy?


4 PAT: Is Johnny a friend of yours?

5 RICHARD: No. (Shaking head).

6 PAT: He's not a friend? No? Okay.

7 Now, do you remember when you used to go to

8 E C D C?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: Remember you used to go to

11 school there; right? Okay. And when you went to

12 school you had teachers; right?

13 RICHARD: (Nodding).

14 PAT: Because everybody has teachers

15 when they're in school; right? How many teachers

16 did you have?

17 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

18 PAT: You had Stephanie?

19 RICHARD: Bernie.

20 PAT: Bernie.

21 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

22 PAT: What's that other teacher's

23 name?


1 DONNA: After you left Stephanie and

2 Bernie's class, then who did you go to?

3 RICHARD: Lois'.

4 PAT: Lois'.

5 DONNA: Then who did you go to?

6 After Lois', it was way downstairs.

7 RICHARD: Coulter.

8 DONNA: Mrs. Coulter's.

9 PAT: Mrs. Coulter's.

10 DONNA: Then who did you go to?

11 RICHARD: Kathy's.

12 PAT: Kathy's. I'll pretty much ask

13 the questions. That's okay. Okay. When you were

14 going to E C D C and when you were in Stephanie's

15 class, who was the other teacher in Stephanie's

16 class?

17 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

18 PAT: You were just telling me what

19 his name was. Did you have a boy teacher?

20 RICHARD: Yeah. A girl.

21 PAT: A girl teacher and a boy

22 teacher; right?

23 RICHARD: Two girls and one boy.


1 PAT: Two girls and one boy. Right.

2 Okay. And you had lots of friends, too; didn't

3 you?

4 RICHARD: (Nodding).

5 PAT: What were your friends' names?

6 We had who?

7 RICHARD: Shondra.

8 PAT: Shondra?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: Shondra. Other names? This

11 was a long time ago. You used to play with them.

12 Outside.

13 RICHARD: Johnny.

14 PAT: Johnny. What was Johnny's last

15 name?

16 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

17 PAT: Johnny Larson?

18 RICHARD: And the other Johnny.

19 PAT: And the other Johnny, too?

20 RICHARD: (Nodding).

21 PAT: Is that Johnny Miller?

22 RICHARD: (Nodding).

23 PAT: Any other kids? Any other


1 little girls?

2 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

3 PAT: Can't remember their names?~

4 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

5 PAT: And then you had a boy teacher;

6 right?

7 RICHARD: (Nodding).

8 PAT: And his name was?

9 RICHARD: Bernie.

10 PAT: Bernie. Okay. Did you play

11 lots of games when you were in school at E C D C?

12 RICHARD: Hide and seek.

13 PAT: You played hide and seek?

14 Okay.

15 RICHARD: And duck duck goose.

16 PAT: And duck duck goose. Okay,

17 well, let's talk about hide and seek. When you were

18 playing hide and seek, were you inside E C D C or

19 were you outside the building at E C D C?

20 RICHARD: Inside.

21 PAT: You were inside?

22 RICHARD: And when Bernie and Johnny and

23 Jared were hiding inside and (Inaudible) outside.


1 (Inaudible).

2 PAT: Okay. So you and Bernie and

3 Johnny and who’s the other one?

4 RICHARD: Jared.

5 PAT: Jared were hiding inside and

6 you said the other children were hiding outside.

7 What were you hiding inside?

8 RICHARD: Under the table.

9 PAT: Under the table. But were you

10 inside the building?

11 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

12 PAT: The other kids were outside

13 counting one, two, three, four, five?

14 RICHARD: Yeah. (Inaudible). Three,

15 four, five, six, seven, eight, seventy, eighty.

16 PAT: When you were inside, do you

17 remember what was inside there with you?

18 RICHARD: Toys.

19 PAT: Toys.

20 RICHARD: A lot of toys.

21 PAT: A lot of toys?

22 RICHARD: (Nodding).

23 PAT: What kind of toys?


RICHARD: A doll, a wind up doll.


1 RICHARD: A doll, a wind up doll.

2 PAT: A wind up doll.

3 RICHARD: A house.

4 PAT: And a little house?

5 RICHARD: A big doll. Record player.

6 PAT: Where were you inside? Do you

7 remember when you were playing at E C D C hide and

8 seek?

9 RICHARD: Under the table.

10 PAT: Under the table. Okay. Was

11 this, what was this near? Do you remember what this

12 was near?

13 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

14 PAT: What was on the outside? You

15 said the other children were outside.

16 RICHARD: Outside they were counting.

17 PAT: Outside where?

18 RICHARD: On the tree.

19 PAT: On the tree.

20 RICHARD: (Nodding).

21 PAT: So the other children were

22 outside counting. Was there another teacher outside

23 with the children watching the children that were


1 outside while you —

2 RICHARD: Just Bernie, just Bernie.

3 PAT: Where was Bernie?

4 RICHARD: He was outside counting and

5 Richard was all alone.

6 PAT: Richard was all alone?

7 RICHARD: (Nodding).

8 PAT: Now when you were inside, who

9 was in there, do you remember?

10 RICHARD: Just me and ಌ (Inaudible).

11 PAT: He's got some more dolls.

12 JOE: I saw you on T V. I saw you

13 right on T V. Want to see yourself on T V after?

14 RICHARD: (Nodding).

15 JOE: Okay. That's a little boy.

16 That's the man.

17 PAT: We have more dolls. We've got

18 a lot of things, huh?

19 JOE: Remember. I'm outside.

20 PAT: Joe's going to be outside,

21 okay, if we need him? Okay? Here's some more dolls

22 right here. Okay?

23 RICHARD: That's the boy (Indicates).


1 PAT: This one looks bigger, though.

2 That one looks bigger than that one; doesn't it?

3 RICHARD: That one looks smaller.

4 PAT: Okay. Do you remember when I

5 was at your house the other day, you were telling me

6 about a shed?

7 RICHARD: (Nodding).

8 PAT: Remember you were saying, can

9 you tell me about that shed again?

10 RICHARD: It was a green shed.

11 PAT: It was a green shed. Where was

12 that shed?

13 RICHARD: In the back.

14 PAT: In the back?

15 RICHARD: (Nodding).

16 PAT: And what did they, what did you

17 keep in that shed?

18 RICHARD: Toys.

19 PAT: Toys? What toys?

20 RICHARD: Bikes, like bikes and bikes,

21 all the bikes and horsy.

22 PAT: So riding toys, toys that kids

23 sit on and ride like bicycles and things like that?


1 RICHARD: (Indicates).

2 PAT: Okay. Well, were you playing

3 that game of hide and seek one time in the shed?

4 RICHARD: Uhಌhuh.

5 PAT: Uhಌhuh? I know this is kind of

6 hard to talk about; isn't it?

7 RICHARD: (Nodding).

8 PAT: Kind of embarrassing to talk

9 about things that might be a little bit scary;

10 right?

11 RICHARD: (Nodding).

12 PAT: But remember that Mom loves

13 you; right? And nobody's going to be mad at you if

14 you tell us what happened because we think that

15 maybe something happened. In the shed. And we kind

16 of, I kind of want you to tell me so that I can help

17 you understand why that happened.

18 RICHARD: (Inaudible) shed.

19 PAT: You bumped your head in the

20 shed?

21 RICHARD: Bumped.

22 PAT: You bumped your head in the

23 shed, too?


1 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

2 PAT: And your hand. So we got so

3 many dolls here. I don't know what we're going to

4 do. Would you like to take a look at the dolls?

5 RICHARD: (Nodding).

6 PAT: Which one would you like to

7 take a look at?

8 RICHARD: My doll.

9 PAT: Your doll? What's your doll's

10 name?

11 RICHARD: Johnny.

12 PAT: How do you like Johnny? He's

13 awful cute.

14 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

15 PAT: Is this a real baby outfit?

16 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

17 PAT: That's real nice.

18 RICHARD: These are shoes.

19 PAT: Shoes.

20 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

21 PAT: Let's talk about that game of

22 hide and seek that you were playing that you were

23 telling me about. Okay? You going to tell me about


1 that in the shed. You remember? You were playing

2 ಌ did you want to show me what happened? This,

3 these two dolls, Johnny, or Richard, these two dolls

4 right here, this is a big boy doll. And this is a

5 little boy doll. And they have their special parts

6 underneath their clothes. Okay? And that doll

7 does, too. That doll has his special parts, too.

8 Do you want to look and see? That was one of the

9 dolls that Jane used, remember, in the puppet show?

10 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

11 PAT: Want me to fix it? You want to

12 close it?

13 RICHARD: (Nodding). (Inaudible).

14 PAT: Yeah, he does? So what we were

15 talking about was a game you were playing, hide and

16 seek when you were in the shed; right? Can you show

17 me where a person touched Richard when he was in the

18 shed?

19 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

20 PAT: On the dupy?

21 RICHARD: (Nodding).

22 PAT: Okay. Can you just kind of

23 show me on this doll? Can you just point to the


1 area where it is?

2 RICHARD: (Indicates).

3 PAT: Right there on the dupy;

4 right?

5 RICHARD: (Nodding).

6 PAT: Who was the person that touched

7 Richard?

8 RICHARD: Jared.

9 PAT: Jared? Okay. Was there

10 another person, a bigger person? Want to check him

11 out, too? Oh, he's got Velcro. That's always

12 easier; isn't it?

13 RICHARD: (Nodding).

14 PAT: His is a little one because

15 he's a little boy; right?

16 RICHARD: (Inaudible) This is a little

17 boy.

18 PAT: Yeah. And this one over here

19 is a big boy. You want to look at him?

20 RICHARD: Re's heavy.

21 PAT: He's heavier because he's a

22 little bit bigger. He's like an adult. You know

23 what an adult is; right?


1 RICHARD: What's this (Indicates)?

2 PAT: You know what that is?

3 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

4 PAT: Do adults like did you ever see

5 your Daddy? Does he have hair there?

6 RICHARD: (Nodding).

7 PAT: Did you ever see any other

8 adults who might have had hair there?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: What other adults did you see?

11 You can tell me. It's okay. Remember I told you

12 you're safe.

13 RICHARD: Got Velcro.

14 PAT: Yeah, we've got Velcro all over

15 the place.

16 RICHARD: Why?

17 PAT: I guess it's easier. You think

18 it's a little bit easier than buttons and zippers?

19 Huh? Want to check him out again, huh?

20 RICHARD: (Inaudible). He's got Velcro,

21 too?

22 PAT: Maybe on the back.

23 RICHARD: Does he have Velcro on the


1 back? Yeah.

2 PAT: Sure, you can undress him.

3 See, he's got a little, see the little hole right

4 there in his mouth?

5 RICHARD: Does that boy, that one -ಌ

6 PAT: Yeah.

7 RICHARD: He drink water, does the

8 little boy drink water?

9 PAT: I don't think so because

10 they're only dolls so they don't drink water.

11 Trying to get them back on?

12 RICHARD: (Inaudible). He's a big boy.

13 PAT: Yeah.

14 RICHARD: He's smaller.

15 PAT: Yeah.

16 RICHARD: Smaller.

17 PAT: Yeah, he's bigger. He's like

18 an adult; right?

19 RICHARD: (Inaudible). Can I take off

20 his clothes?

21 PAT: Yes.

22 RICHARD: He's hot.

23 PAT: What we were talking about was


1 PAT: Trying to pull them off or put

2 them on? Put them on?

3 RICHARD: He's got big feet. He's got

4 big feet. Why does he got big feet?

5 PAT: Richard, do you remember Bernie

6 touching any of the other children at school? Do

7 you remember some of their names?

8 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

9 PAT: No? Do you remember did he

10 touch any of the little girls? Can you show me?

11 Show me on that little girl. If we make believe

12 that this is Bernie, can you show me on the little

13 girl what Bernie did?

14 RICHARD: (Indicates).

15 PAT: Do you remember what the little

16 girl's name was?

17 RICHARD: Shondra.

18 PAT: Shondra? And when Bernie did

19 this to Shondra, where were you? Do you remember?

20 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

21 PAT: Do you remember what room you

22 were in? Were you inside the classroom or ಌ

23 RICHARD: I can't put this on.


1 PAT: Want me to help? We'll put it

2 right on. Okay? The Velcro. Now you've got him

3 dressed again.

4 RICHARD: He wants to drink water. He's

5 a little person.

6 PAT: Yeah, he's a little boy and

7 he's got a little dupy; right? Do you remember any

8 little boys being touched by Bernie?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding)

10 PAT: Where did Bernie touch the

11 little boys?

12 RICHARD: (Indicates).

13 PAT: On the dupy?

14 RICHARD: (Nodding).

15 PAT: Did he touch Richard on the dupy?

16 RICHARD: (Nodding)

17 PAT: It's okay to talk about it.

18 Sometimes it's kind of embarrassing. But it's okay

19 to talk about it.

20 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

21 PAT: Can you show me on this little

22 boy what, what Bernie did, everything that Bernie

23 did to that little boy?


1 RICHARD: (Indicates).

2 PAT: How did that little boy feel?


4 PAT: Sad?

5 RICHARD: This is a (Inaudible) doll.

6~ What has he got?

7~, PAT: That little boy? It's special

8~ stuffing. There's special stuffing in there.

9 RICHARD: (Indicates).

1O~ PAT: Now, that's the little boy;

11 right? Now, Richard, you said that Bernie touched Richard

12 on the dupy? Did Bernie touch any other little boys

13 that Richard saw? Do you remember?

14 RICHARD: (Indicates).

15 PAT: Oh, this is, this is the big

16 one. This is the adult one. If we make believe

17 this is Bernie, anyone touch Bernie?

18 RICHARD: (Indicates).

19 PAT: What did they do to Bernie's

20 butt? Do you remember?

21 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

22 PAT: Do you remember if they touched

23 it with something? Want me to help you?


RICHARD: He's a ಌ (Inaudible).

2 (Indicates).

3 PAT: What's he doing to that little

4 boy?

5 RICHARD: Squishing him.

6 PAT: He's squishing him?

7 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

8 PAT: Is he hurting that little boy?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: Yeah? What's that little boy's

11 name? What's this little boy's name?

12 RICHARD: Johnny.

13 PAT: Johnny? Yeah? And what's,

14 who's this? What can we name him?

15 RICHARD: Mark.

16 PAT: Mark.

17 RICHARD: Mark ಌ he's killing him.

18 PAT: He's killing him?

19 RICHARD: (Indicates) He's dead. He's

20 out of the circle. He's out of the circle.

21 PAT: He's out of the circle.

22 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

23 PAT: You better go get him and bring


1 him back here.

2 RICHARD: He's the big boy.

3 PAT: This is the little boy. Can

4 you get the adult person for me? The adult boy?

5 Let's bring him back.

6 RICHARD: (Indicates).

7 PAT: I want to find out a little bit

8 more about, can you sit over here?

9 DONNA: Sit next to me.

10 PAT: Can you tell us some stories

11 that your teacher Bernie told you?

12 RICHARD: Hansel and Gretel.

13 PAT: Hansel and Gretel? Is that a

14 scary story or is that a nice story?

15 RICHARD: Scary with a witch.

16 PAT: Scary with a witch? What did

17 Bernie tell you about the witch?

18 RICHARD: The witch ate Hansel up.

19 PAT: The witch ate Hansel up?

20 RICHARD: (Nodding).

21 PAT: Was Hansel scared?

22 RICHARD: Yeah. Gretel wasn't.

23 PAT: Gretel wasn't.


1 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

2 PAT: No.

3 RICHARD: Gretel pushed the witch in the

4 oven.

5 PAT: Do you know what? If I

6 remember the story of Hansel and Gretel, I don't

7 remember that the witch, the witch ate up Hansel.

8 thought that Hansel went back and lived with his

9 Daddy.

10 RICHARD: He did. He got away ಌ

11 PAT: At last they got away? Yeah?

12 RICHARD: (Indicates).

13 PAT: Is that hurting that little

14 boy?


16 PAT: No?

17 RICHARD: Take Pamper off.

18 PAT: Okay.

19 RICHARD: Take his Pamper off.

20 PAT: He has his diaper; huh? .Johnny,

21 do you remember anything else that your teacher

22 Bernie did to some of the children that made you

23 kind of like funny inside like he shouldn't do that?


1 No? You don't remember?

2 RICHARD: (Indicates).

3 PAT: Yes, you do remember.

4 RICHARD: (Indicates).

5 PAT: You want to talk about it a

6 little bit? Maybe after you get Johnny, your Cabbage

7 Patch, undressed.

8 RICHARD: (Indicates).

9 PAT: You want Pat to wait a minute?

10 I'll wait until you get it off.

11 RICHARD: (Indicates).

12 PAT: Okay. You're doing such a

13 great job here.

14 RICHARD: Diapers.

15 PAT: Your Cabbage Patch has a real

16 diaper on.

17 RICHARD: Yeah, Sears.

18 PAT: That's Sears? That where Mommy

19 bought the rubber pants for your doll?

20 RICHARD: (Nodding). He's got rubber

21 pants.

22 PAT: Richard, when Bernie was touching

23 you, did he tell you ಌ


1. RICHARD: Johnny says, oh my God.

2 PAT: Johnny said, oh my God? When did

3 he say that?

4 RICHARD: Right now.

5 PAT: Right now?

6 RICHARD: Oh my gosh. Oh my God.

7 PAT: Richard, when Bernie was touching

8 you -ಌ (Inaudible) ಌ Richard, (Inaudible) you do?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: Do you remember what the

11 teacher's name was? Mrs. Coulter?

12 RICHARD: (Nodding).

13 PAT: She saw Bernie touch Richard on

14 the dupy?

15 RICHARD: (Nodding). (Inaudible). And

16 Miss Coulter (Inaudible).

17 PAT: Mrs. Coulter yelled at Bernie?

18 What did she say to Bernie?

19 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

20 PAT: Don't do that to Richard?

21 RICHARD: Don't do that to Richard.

22 PAT: Was she an older lady or is she

23 a younger woman, younger lady like me and your Mom?


1. RICHARD: Johnny says, oh my God.

2 PAT: Johnny said, oh my God? When did

3 he say that?

4 RICHARD: Right now.

5 PAT: Right now?

6 RICHARD: Oh my gosh. Oh my God.

7 PAT: Richard, when Bernie was touching

8 you -ಌ (Inaudible) ಌ Richard, (Inaudible) you do?

9 RICHARD: (Nodding).

10 PAT: Do you remember what the

11 teacher's name was? Mrs. Coulter?

12 RICHARD: (Nodding).

13 PAT: She saw Bernie touch Richard on

14 the dupy?

15 RICHARD: (Nodding). (Inaudible). And

16 Miss Coulter (Inaudible).

17 PAT: Mrs. Coulter yelled at Bernie?

18 What did she say to Bernie?

19 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

20 PAT: Don't do that to Richard?

21 RICHARD: Don't do that to Richard.

22 PAT: Was she an older lady or is she

23 a younger woman, younger lady like me and your Mom?


I PAT: Yeah? Did he have Richard do

2 anything to him?

3 RICHARD: Touched him, Johnny did..

4 PAT: Johnny did? Johnny who?

5 RICHARD: Larson.

6 PAT: Johnny Larson. He touched him on

his, what did he touch him on his dupy with?

81 RICHARD: A stick.

91 PAT: He touched him on his dupy with

10 a stick?

11 RICHARD: He’s got a belly button.

12 PAT: Yeah, he does. Do you remember

13 did he touch him on his dupy with anything else?

14 Can maybe this, if this was Johnny and this was

15 Bernie, can you show me what Johnny did to Bernie?

16 RICHARD: (Indicates).

17 PAT: Can you just show me?

18 RICHARD: (Indicates).

19 PAT: Yeah. Okay. Do you remember

20 anything else? Did he do anything else?

21 RICHARD: Johnny's clapping.

22 PAT: Your little Johnny's clapping;

23 huh?


1 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

2 PAT: Okay. You can put his pants

3 on?

4 RICHARD: I can't get ಌ

5 PAT: Those are hard to put on.

6 RICHARD: (Inaudible). I can't put this

7 on.

8 PAT: You want me to help?

9 RICHARD: The doll can have that and

10' this little boy can't.

11 PAT: Richard, you said when Bernie was

12 touching you, what did he (Inaudible).

13 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

14 PAT: Were you angry?

15 RICHARD: Yes.

16 PAT: Did he say anything to you

17 about, you know, when he was doing it? Did he say

18 anything to Richard?

19 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

20 PAT: No? Did be make any noises?

21 RICHARD: (Nodding).

22 PAT: Yes.

23 RICHARD: I yelled at him.


1 PAT: You yelled at him? Did Bernie

2 make any noises that you can remember?

3 RICHARD: (Nodding). Don't (Inaudible).

4 PAT: Did he make any funny noises.

5 RICHARD: Oo, 00, 00.

6 PAT: Made funny noises like that?

7 Yeah? Do you remember seeing his dupy?

8 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

9 PAT: Yeah?

10 RICHARD: Yeah.

11 PAT: Did he have his pants down or

12 just his zipper down or ಌ

13 RICHARD: His pants down.

14 PAT: Yeah. Did he have his

l5~ underpants down?

16 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

17 PAT: No?

18 RICHARD: (Nodding).

19 PAT: Yes? Were you, you know, I

20 just can't figure out where you were. Were you in

21 your classroom?

22 RICHARD: (Nodding).

23 PAT: Was it nap time or were you in


1 the bathroom or another room or ಌ

2 RICHARD: Nap ಌ (Inaudible).

3 PAT: It was nap time?

4 RICHARD: She saying, oh my God.

5 PAT: She is? Who's that?

6 RICHARD: Zelda.

7 PAT: Zelda? Yeah, just like the

8 puppets that we saw in the puppet show?

9 RICHARD: I'm going to ಌ take this out

10 (Inaudible)

11 PAT: I, maybe we better leave that

12 in. I can tie this and make a pretty bow.

13 RICHARD: Yeah.

14 PAT: You want me to do that? This

15 is a girl doll; right?

16 RICHARD: That girl doll, that doll.

17 PAT: Do you remember seeing Bernie

18 with any little girls?

19 RICHARD: (Nodding).

20 PAT: Can you show me anything that

21 they did? Oh, that's Bernie; right? Is that

22 Bernie?

23 RICHARD: (Nodding).


1 PAT: What did he do? What did he do

2 to the little boy?

3 RICHARD: (Indicates).

4 PAT: What was that?

5 RICHARD: Put his head.

6 PAT: Put his head on that little

7 boy? Right on his dupy?

8 RICHARD: (Indicates).

9 PAT: Who was this little boy? Do

10 you remember who this little boy was?

11 RICHARD: What?

12 PAT: Do you remember what this

13 little boy's name was?

14 RICHARD: Zoie.

15 PAT: Zoie. Did Bernie ever do that?

16 Do that to Richard?

17 RICHARD: (Nodding).

18 PAT: Richard, you want to sit up there?

19 Okay. Do you remember anything coming out of

20 Bernie's dupy?

21 RICHARD: (Nodding) Pee.

22 PAT: Pee came out? Where did it

23 go? Do you remember where it went?


1 RICHARD: Toilet.

2 PAT: It went in the toilet?

3 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

4 PAT: On the ground? Outside?

5 RICHARD: (Nodding).

6 PAT: Yeah? So you were outside with

7 grass and dirt, you mean?

8 RICHARD: Inside (Inaudible).

9 PAT: You were outside on the

10 playground?

11 RICHARD: Uhಌhuh.

12 PAT: Who was out there? Oops.

13 Careful. You were outside on the playground? Who

14 was out there with you? Bernie and Richard and ಌ 15 RICHARD: Search me.

16 PAT: Search you, huh? Can't

17 remember?

18 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

19 PAT: Were there any other children?

20 RICHARD: Search me.

21 PAT: Remember the time you took your

22 cots outside?

23 RICHARD: Yeah.


1 PAT: Yeah? Who was there that day?

2 RICHARD: Going to sit in this chair.

3 PAT: Going to sit in that one? Move

4 it on the rug a little bit.

5 RICHARD: Put it here.

6 PAT: Can't put it there because

7 you'll be right in front of the camera over there.

8 Can you put it over here?

9 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

10 PAT: Here, bring your chair over

11 here next to me.

12 RICHARD: I'm strong.

13 PAT: I know. I can't believe you

14 can pick that up. You're very strong; aren't you?

15 RICHARD: This is a big rocking chair

16 for big boys.

17 PAT: Richard, I want to ask you another

18 question; okay? And this is a real important one.

19 Okay? Do you remember when Bernie was doing this,

20 you said, he did it to Shondra?

21 RICHARD: (Nodding).

22 PAT: And he did it to Richard?

23 RICHARD: (Nodding).


1 PAT: Whoops. And he touched Johnny.

2 Do you remember any teachers ಌ 3 RICHARD: That's a big one.

4 PAT: That's a big one, yeah. Do you

5 remember any teachers seeing Bernie do this?


7 PAT: No? That's a big chair.

8 RICHARD: Closer.

9 PAT: Do you have anything else you

10 want to tell me?

11 RICHARD: Saw myself on T V (Inaudible).

12 And I saw myself ಌ and I kept (Inaudible).

13 PAT: Should we start getting all

14 these dolls dressed, you think?

15 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

16 PAT: Is it almost time to get

17 going?

18 RICHARD: (Shaking head).

19 PAT: Row do you fee]. about Bernie

20 doing those things to you?

21 RICHARD: I don't know.

22 PAT: You don't know? If you could

23 say something to him, would you want to say


1 something to him?

2 RICHARD: (Inaudible).

3 PAT: It doesn't stick. Come on

4 over. We got to get these guys dressed. Come back

5 here. Come on back and help me dress up these dolls

6 because we've got other children. Remember I told

7 you that I told you I talked to a lot of children?

8 I've got other children, too.

9 RICHARD: Here?

10 PAT: Yeah, sure, lots of your

11 friends come here and talk to me.

12 RICHARD: What's this go on, this one?

13 PAT: Yeah.

14 RICHARD: This big one. I can't put

15 this one back on.

16 PAT: Maybe Mom can help us because

17 we've got so many, I don't know whose jeans are

18 whose. This is the big boy. Those are his. This

19 is the little boy's.

20 RICHARD: He's naked.

21 PAT: Do you remember taking walks in

22 the woods?

23 RICHARD: (Shaking head).


1 PAT: Sometimes when you go on the

2 field trips?


4 PAT: No?

5 RICHARD: But maybe I can, maybe I can

6 scrape — (Inaudible) because I, I —

7 PAT: Yeah? Richard, can you draw me a

8 picture of Bernie up there?

9 RICHARD: There's Bernie's tummy.

10 PAT: Yeah? What's his tummy doing?

11 RICHARD: Sticking out.

12 PAT: Sticking out.

13 RICHARD: I've got to go to the

14 bathroom.

15 PAT: You do? Okay. You can use the

16 bathroom. I think I'll, I think we'll have Mom take

17 you to the bathroom.

18 DONNA: Come here, Richard.


20 Interview concluded



23 I, KAREN K. KIDWELL, Certified Shorthand

Reporter, do hereby certify that the foregoing proceedings were transcribed to the best of my ability and belief.